Liveblogging the Vice-Presidential Debate

It's a rare presidential election year where the vice-presidential debate gets real media focus, let alone rivals the presidential debates for viewership. Yet many are saying that tonight's debate between VP candidates Joe Biden and Sarah Palin may actually be seen by more people than the presidential debate last week. If you're not one of the many watching, you can still follow the action with us here with our liveblog.

EDIT: And you can also click in for our post-debate analysis of the debate, and a collection of takes from other sources around the Internet.

8:00 CST: Gwen Ifill, the host for the evening, introduces Senator Joe Biden and Governor Sarah Palin. First question goes to Sen. Biden. The Senate rescue bill that passed: is it the worst of Washington or the best of Washington?

Biden says it's neither, but it's evidence of the gross failure of the economic theories of the past eight years. Notes Obama's four basic criteria for the bill: oversight, focus on homeowners, taxpayers as investors (they have to recoup their investment), and no golden parachutes for CEOs.

8:05: Sarah Palin talks about how regular America has some fear regarding the current economy. Cites McCain's Fannie/Freddie regulation efforts a couple of years ago.

How would you shrink the gap of polarization as VP? Biden: well, that's what I've done my whole life. Goes back on message to call McCain "out of touch:" McCain said the economy was "strong," and spoke in support of Bush's policies, and then spoke about the economic crisis. Palin says he was referring to the American workforce. Then she pulls out the "maverick" card to try and characterize Biden's long years in the Senate as a negative.

8:08: Palin, asked about the subprime lending meltdown, points to predatory lenders convincing people to buy a $300k house when they can only afford a $100k house. Ironically, there was a plenty big hit for people buying $100k houses as well. So much for her being "in touch" with hockey moms and Joe Six-Pack -- which, of course, she brings back out in her answer.

8:12: Biden mentions that Obama had pointed to the dangers of subprime lending two years ago, while McCain said he was "surprised" by the subprime crisis, and had given interviews on how he is always for cutting regulations. (So much for McCain's supposed Fannie/Freddie "regulation" efforts.) Talks relief for the middle class.

Palin tries to go on the offensive, saying that yes, they need relief from cutting taxes and Democrats want to raise them, citing the old "voted to raise taxes 94 times" line, as well as a vote Obama supposedly made for the "largest tax increase in history." Biden's too smart for that -- "the charge is absolutely not true." The vote they're trying to pin Obama on was a procedural budget vote, and McCain voted the exact same way Obama did on it. Zing! By that measure, Biden says McCain voted to raise taxes 477 times. And he notes that Palin avoided the question on their insistence for deregulation, which got us into all this trouble in the first place.

Palin says she doesn't want to answer the moderator's questions, and instead wants to "talk to the American people." Wow. I've heard a lot of answers that attempt to dodge a question, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone dodge an *entire debate* before. Why bother showing up? Just put out a press release and be done with it.

On a followup question where the moderator calls taxing those who make over $250,000 "class warfare" and notes that the McPalin health care plan could actually *increase* the number of uninsured by 5 million, Biden talks about fairness in giving the middle class a break, and that 95% of those who make less than $150,000 will be getting a tax break -- and even those over $250,000 will be paying no more than they did under Ronald Reagan. The tax cuts that McCain voted for, in contrast, gave no tax break at all to the middle class.

Palin has a beef with Biden having previously said paying taxes as "patriotic" -- the "middle class she lived in all her life" (do you really want to compete with Biden on who grew up in the middle class, Governor?) calls that "income redistribution," apparently, and thinks patriotism is telling the government that it is "too often the problem." She also defends McCain's health care proposal of giving a $5000 tax credit to families.

8:18: Biden nails that shot on "income redistribution" against the wall -- in Scranton and the neighborhoods where he grew up, they call not giving Exxon the $4 billion tax break McCain wants to give them and instead giving the middle class health care isn't "income redistribution" -- it's called "fairness." And when Palin said that the tax increases Democrats are calling for on those that made over $250,000 a year would hurt the small business owners that they were claiming they supported, Biden noted that 95% of small business owners made less than $250,000 and the majority of small business owners would actually be helped.

Finally, answering McCain's health care proposal, he notes that the way McCain's paying for the $5000 tax credit is by taxing people's health savings accounts. So McCain's taking money out of your pocket to give the 20 million additional Americans that will be uninsured under his plan a $5000 tax credit to pay for $12,000 worth of what were once employer-funded health care benefits. "I call that the ultimate Bridge To Nowhere." Laughter and applause.

8:23: Asked what promises a campaign might not be able to keep because of the bailout, Biden says we may have to slow down the doubling of foreign aid we called for earlier. And we have to make sure that the Bush tax cuts are repealed, and end some waste and loopholes like the $100 billion tax dodge of Americans setting up corporations with foreign P.O. boxes to avoid taxes. "I call *that* unpatriotic."

Palin says that McCain's not the type to say one thing to one group and another to another. (That one's going to get some fact-checking.) I guess that's her answer to the question? Palin apparently thinks that sentence is enough, and goes back to energy, talking about how she went against Washington and an energy plan Obama voted for which gave oil companies tax breaks (that would be the plan to encourage alternative energy sources, you may recall, which Republicans wouldn't let pass unless it had an oil company tax break) and broke up oil monopolies in Alaska. Huh? That's a pretty gross mischaracterization of what actually happened. Biden says she agrees with Palin's "diverging" in her state by implementing a windfall tax (*that's* what happened), and that's exactly what he and Obama want to do and what McCain opposes, instead of giving $4 billion in tax cuts to Exxon and their ilk which McCain's tax plan does, flat out. (He also notes that when the oil company tax break was separated from the alternative energy bill, Obama voted against the tax break and McCain did not.)

8:26: A question on the bankruptcy bill that passed in the Republican-led Congress, making it harder for people to declare bankruptcy. Palin supports McCain's vote for that bill. The moderator notes that Biden and Obama were on different sides of that; Biden says that they are now in full agreement for allowing bankruptcy courts to modify mortgage agreements to give the middle class some help, which he says he believes the R ticket doesn't support. Palin says that's not right, but again doesn't give details (which I'd like, because I've never heard McCain say anything like that) and instead goes back to talking about energy, this time regarding the domestic supply of oil and increasing drilling.

8:30: The moderator uses the increased drilling bit to segue into global warming. What is true and what is false about the climate change issue? Palin talks about it being real, but not necessarily being man-made; she does say we have to "clean up the planet." Talks about the "all of the above" movement regarding that -- not noting until later that it's in regards to energy independence and allowing domestic drilling. Will she get away with somehow combining the claim that she wants to clean up the planet with advocacy for increased drilling which puts the environment at greater risk? Only time will tell.

Biden says the crisis is indeed man-made, and calls that one of the fundamental differences between the campaigns -- he talks about clean coal technology and alternative energy for energy independence, which McCain voted against 20 times, and how his only solution is"drill, drill, drill" though we wouldn't see a drop of that oil for ten years.

Palin clarifies that the chant is "drill, baby, drill." Seriously -- can't make this stuff up, folks. She calls offshore drilling "safe," without defense, and criticizes Biden's stances against it. When brought back to the question, she notes that they are in favor of carbon emission caps.

Biden stays on topic with the question, noting that they were and have been in favor of caps and points to McCain's voting 20 times against alternative energy legislation.

8:34: On gay marriage, Biden says he's in favor of granting equal rights to same-sex couples, saying it's what the Constitution calls for; Palin speaks about not redefining traditional marriage, and then apparently tries to vacillate on how she has close friends that made different decisions that disagree, and she's not for withholding hospital rights and such. When asked directly, Biden says he's not for gay marriage specifically, as that should be left up to people's faiths. But he thanks Palin, who he "takes at her word," for support for equal rights for same-sex couples. Ooh! Nice job turning her rambling answers against her. She says in reply only, "you asked specifically about same-sex marriage, and we are both in agreement against it."

8:41: On an exit strategy for Iraq, Palin defends the war and calls it a "tragedy" were we to get out too soon. Biden notes that, "with all due respect, I didn't hear a plan." He says Obama and he have a clear plan for exiting the war, and notes that we're spending billions on the war when the Iraqi government is running with a surplus. They have a plan to end this war; McCain has no end to the war.

Palin calls their plan a "white flag of surrender." Tries to mischaracterize some things that Biden had said that were respectful of McCain as support for his policies. She cites respect for Biden's family and their service, like hers, but thinks differently for Obama -- "anybody voting against funding after promising to do it? That's another matter."

Anybody paying attention in the Senate knows the truth in that matter -- and Biden was paying attention: "McCain voted against funding the troops -- let me say that again -- McCain voted against funding the troops." It was Biden's bill funding MRAPS that McCain voted against, and Biden nailed Palin on that.

The questions move a bit eastward to Pakistan, asking whether the bigger threat is a nuclear Iran or an unstable Pakistan. Biden thinks both are threats, but focuses his answer on the terrorist haven that is Pakistan's northwest border. I honestly am not sure I can give you a summary of Palin's answer -- other than talking about dictators "hating America," and how Petraeus apparently "coined" the war on terror in Iraq (he wasn't even the first commander there!), I don't think the question was answered. She did bring back out the claim that Obama wants to meet with foreign heads of state that oppose us, when she was asked about all of McCain's foreign policy advisors advocating more diplomatic discussions.

Biden takes the right tack, the one he's been following for the whole debate -- he doesn't attack Palin, he attacks McCain, first on the knowledge that Ahmedinejad, who McCain keeps saying he wouldn't meet with due to security concerns in Iran, doesn't actually control the security apparatus in Iran -- the theocracy does; then on how all our allies, all the experts, and even all McCain's advisors are saying we should be talking to people; and then on his refusal to even meet with the head of state of Spain -- a NATO ally. "I find that incredible."

8:50: What has Bush done right or wrong in Israel? Palin spends more time talking about how they support Israel than much about the Bush administration. Biden says he's always been pro-Israel and never would've joined the ticket if Obama didn't share his passion, and says we must back Israel and lays out how we'd do it -- and *answers the question* on how Bush has badly mismanaged the situation with Israel and the Middle East. Palin doesn't deny it, and tries to distance herself from Bush and the Republicans, saying that "all administrations have blunders" and talks about how "change is coming."

8:55: An easy opening for Biden. "I haven't heard how his policies are any different from George Bush's." He hits that talking point *hard*. That's going to be a video clip tomorrow.

And, I suppose unsurprisingly, Palin doesn't answer that at all. She goes on to nuclear proliferation and the need to stop Kim Jong Il and Ahmedinejad from getting nuclear capability. She then skips back to Afghanistan, calling Obama's comments about air raids in Afghanistan and killing civilians "hurts our cause." Biden's answer: "The facts matter." The commanding general in Afghanistan has said that our current plan in Afghanistan *will not work*. And on nuclear weapons, McCain voted against a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty. McCain has not been leading on this. Obama reached across the aisle to conservative Republican Dick Lugar to come up with a nuclear nonproliferation plan.

Palin says that General McClellan (sic) didn't definitively say that the current plan wouldn't work in Afghanistan (you should probably not screw up General McKiernan's name, Governor), and states that the surge principles would also work in Afghanistan. Biden says, well, he did say that, and additionally McCain didn't until recently feel increasing the effort in Afghanistan was important, having said two years ago that the reason we didn't hear about it was because it succeeded (oops!), and that Obama was the one calling for more troops there.

9:01: Biden gets asked about intervention, and does say he was in favor in places like Bosnia and Kosovo, where it saved thousands of lives, but says he was against it in Iraq and only voted to approve the enforcement of economic sanctions there.

9:03: Palin says "it's so obvious that I'm a Washington outsider." Talks about being "for the war before you were against it," saying that Biden had been in favor of McCain's approaches and against Obama's before he was picked as VP.

9:06: Biden says, no, he's been saying he's been against McCain's take on the war from the outset. Both he and Obama were pointing out that, no, we wouldn't be cheered as liberators, that it would tie us down and cost us billions, and that it would inflame Sunni-Shi'a relations. Palin says "you can say what you want a month out from the election," and says fact-checkers will have the spin on that tomorrow. And that they will -- but she's not right. She tried to cite the primary debates as proof that he disagreed with Obama's approach, but that's misrepresenting that story -- and it is definitely *not* true that he was with McCain on staying in Iraq indefinitely.

9:08: What would happen if, God forbid, one of you would have to take over the presidency? Biden notes that he's fundamentally in agreement with all Obama's policies, and Palin basically stumps for how she'd be a good president by bringing a "Main Street" mentality in. I suppose with all the credibility questions surrounding her, she has to stump for herself a little.

Biden retorts with his own "Main Street" cred, and talking to regular folks and asking if the economic policies of the last eight years have been any help.

9:11: Palin goes into "doggone it" mode -- thanks, Ronnie -- to try and distance herself from the Bush policies that Biden just tied her to, telling Biden to quit looking in the past and that we should tell people what we are changing. Would've been nice to note there how her policies aren't any change at all. She shifts pretty randomly into education, giving a shout out to her local elementary school and talking about adding flexibility to No Child Left Behind.

Asking Palin about a prior comment on not knowing what a vice president does, she says it was a lame attempt at a joke, and "of course we know what a vice president does." She says she'd be leading on McCain's energy policy as VP. Biden talks less about policies and more about how Obama had wanted an independent voice of advice -- good call on differentiating the two VP candidates. He also notes, back on education, that McCain worked against full funding in No Child Left Behind and the reason it hasn't worked was "the funding was left behind."

Asked about the claim Cheney made about the VP being part of two different branches of government, Palin talks about the Founders giving a lot of flexibility to the VP position -- huh? Last time I read it, the VP was listed in one of the Constitution's Articles, not two. Biden seems to agree, saying that the Constitution is explicit in defining the VP's office in the executive branch and that Cheney's move was just a power grab in favor of a more powerful, unitary executive -- "and look where it's gotten us." Called Cheney probably the most dangerous vice president in the history of America. Ouch!

9:18: Moderator: Your Achilles heel -- conventional wisdom says Palin, yours is lack of experience, and Biden, yours is lack of discipline. How do you see it? Palin talks only briefly about her time as mayor, business owner, and governor, and says the bigger deal is the worldview she brings to the office and the vision she shares with McCain. Biden says that many might think it's his passion, not his lack of discipline, that is his Achilles heel, but that he'd put his record of change against McCain or anybody. He gets a little choked up talking about his upbringing, and understanding what it's like raising two kids by himself, needing help, or thinking that one of his children might not make it. Nobody can say he doesn't know the plight of the middle class, and he expressed that. Palin then talked about being a "reformer" and McCain being a "maverick" -- which, of course, Biden has better cred than her on as well. "He's been a maverick on some issues, but he has been no maverick on the things that matter to people's lives." Bush's budget has added $3 trillion to our debt. And McCain has been a follower to Bush on health care, education, the war, and even giving assistance to people that needed to buy heating oil when prices were going through the roof.

9:23: Can you think of an issue where you changed a long-held view to accomodate current circumstances? Biden says he had to change his views on judicial appointments, because it became increasingly evident that ideology mattered a great deal in that, and Palin voiced regret for not vetoing some budgets in Alaska.

9:28: How would you change the tone in Washington? Biden cites how he's known for treating his fellow Senators with respect and not questioning their motives or going for low blows, and Palin talks about her time as Governor and making appointments without considering partisanship. (I wonder if anyone's going to bring up her Alaska firing scandal in the news tomorrow.)

Closing arguments:

Palin's proud of running with McCain; we have to fight for and defend freedom for our kids, and John McCain will do that.

Biden says this will be the most important election you've voted in in your entire life. There's a need for fundamental change in economic philosophy and foreign policy. Talks about assuring benefits for veterans, and his middle class neighborhood upbringing and reestablishing the confidence people had in America.

And that's a wrap!

I suppose it's a bit predictable for a pro-Democratic rag to claim that Biden was victorious in the debate, but in this case the debate was so lopsided I'm not sure I could see where one would argue otherwise. As predicted, Palin stumbled and dodged her way around a number of questions, and as predicted, Biden avoided attacking her and let her stumble her way into a loss -- but there was, to me, a fundamental flaw in Palin's attack strategy that showed up even in the more rehearsed answers, and for which the blame must be shared with the communications team.

One of Palin's clearly prepared attacks on Biden was regarding Biden's opposition to McCain's Iraq policies. Palin tried to claim that Biden had been in favor of McCain's earlier policies. The intent was, to an astute observer, to paint him as a "flip-flopper" in contrast to her being a "Washington outsider" -- but the message was rarely seen, and not well expressed when it was.

So when she also tried to paint Biden as closer to McCain's views with environmental views, and insisted that both she and he were against gay marriage, she painted Biden as farther to the right. A Democrat being painted to the right -- that's a centrist. Palin basically ceded the political center to Biden. Did the campaign think that painting Biden as centrist would somehow discourage Democrats who are mostly excited about Obama? If they did, I think that will prove to be a remarkably bad call.

Palin didn't do a good job of doing what every Republican will tell you is a requisite for any Republican running for office this year: distance herself from Bush. She left that basically open for Biden to nail McCain on that subject throughout the debate. But not only was she not doing her job, she basically scored a self-goal in giving moderate undecideds more reasons to lean toward Democrats. All in all, tonight was a resoundingly poor performance on the part of Palin and the McCain campaign. Biden basically would've won by default regardless, but he gets bonus points both for nailing McCain as a conformist and for rejecting many of the premises and false claims that we have been hearing so often from the right.

Other liveblogs:

• Vince's liveblog at Capitol Annex
• Washington Post's liveblog and fact-checking
• TIME's liveblog and analysis
• Crooks and Liars' liveblog
• For an international view, The Guardian's liveblog and analysis, noting that polls of independent viewers give it to Biden by a landslide