MSNBC Democratic Candidate Debate: The Liveblog

OK, I think I'm ready to start liveblogging what may be one of the best televised debates in the last 25 years. In true In The Pink Texas fashion, I've set myself up with a big screen TV and a good beer or three. Won't be doing any beer reviews here, though — got to go to ITPT for that; they do that much better than I.

6:01 Brian Reeves is welcoming me to the debate. Boy, I'm excited. Looks like Richardson, Dodd, Edwards, Biden, Obama, Clinton, Kucinich, Gravel in that order from left to right. Ooh — they're taking South Carolina viewers' questions as well as othe preplanned set. And they're going to have a lighting round? Seriously? Well, it was interesting when done in the gubernatorial debates last year, I guess. Candidates have been asked to not thank the sponsors at the beginning of their answers. Two points.

6:04 First question's a softball, at Clinton first, asking about Congress' passing the spending bill with the timetable against Bush's veto challenge. Expected answer from Clinton: American people have spoken, hopefully the administration listens.

6:06 Biden: do you agree with Reid that the war is lost? He says it's not a football game — it's not about win or lose. Obama next, asked about his calling the war "dumb." Says he's proud of having always opposed the war. Guess it's a shame he wasn't in Congress when that would have mattered, but he sure does sell it. "There's no military solution; there's only a political solution." Like I said, softball question.

6:08 Edwards gets thrown under the bus first. Gets called on his having questioned votes for the war, and asked if that wasn't a direct attack at Clinton. Considering they said candidates couldn't address their opponents, that seems a bit unfair, but what do I know? Edwards says, no, it's a question for all who voted for the war; you have to vote with your conscience, and defend your actions. Clinton gets a response, and says that she backs her vote, and it was based on the information they had.

6:10 Kucinich gets asked the question he desperately wanted to answer: is it consistent to say you're opposed to the war and yet keep funding the war? Leading question, anyone? Of course, his answer is no, with a little self-aggrandizement and a big swipe at Clinton: we all had access to the same data, we didn't all reach the same decision; we are ourselves responsible for them.

6:12 Has Richardson done this before? It's a shame his posture and mannerisms make him come across a little like a goon, because what everyone already knows is even clearer when he speaks: he is a bright man, and trumps everyone on foreign policy experience. He answers the question of supporting funding the war with a quick "no," and then goes on to lay out his plan for fixing Iraq. Savvy.

6:13 Biden follows suit in laying out a plan, except his comes across more as snarking on the administration than the logical, step-by-step plan Richardson had. You can't follow that, Joe.

6:14 Gravel — hey, I didn't know this, he was part of cutting off funding for the Vietnam War! Nifty. "The war was lost the day the President invaded Iraq on fraudulent grounds." Win — though I guess it's easy picking on the guy that's down. A little ranty blame-the-Prez as well, though with that Vietnam lead-in from the questioner, he probably gets away with it more effectively.

6:16 Obama gets a question from the South Carolina public. "SC questions" from now on. Uses it to talk about stop-loss, and how the Democrats are either one signature or 16 votes away from ending the war. I like that sound bite. Clinton also gets to answer, bashes Bush for not listening to the American people.

6:17 "Elephant in the room" questions? You've got to be kidding me! Got to love sensatinalist media. But hey — we get to hear how well candidates' staffers prepped them for spinning for their skeletons. That's good, I guess. Obama first, gets flak for wanting to play "a different kind of politics," yet one of his donors was charged with demanding kickbacks for dirty business deals in Illinois, as published in the Chicago Sun-Times. Of course, Obama has thousands of donors, and that was just one, and he says as much.

6:21 Edwards gets two! Ouch! First on the haircut bit, and how yes, he's wealthy, but why did that have to come out of campaign funds? His answer: well that was a mistake, and I remedied it. The second, harder: Edwards managed hedge funds, does any good actually come out of that? Grace under fire, because that can't have been much of an expected question. Says the financial market has a key role in identifying where resources are available and accessible. Clinton doesn't seem to get a hardball question in response; she's simply asked what she also thinks about hedge funds, without the loaded implication Edwards got regarding his involvement. She says yes, hedge funds are as good as any part of the financial market, because we have experience and we know how to regulate them. The problem comes when an administration doesn't enforce regulation, and we need someone with the strength to do that.

6:24 Richardson, earlier, asked why he was last to call for Gonzales' resignation, stated that part of it was because he was Hispanic. Did I hear that right? I must have misheard. Says, well, he was honest, but he also said then that he wanted to wait until after the Senate hearing, which makes more sense. "America wants candor, not blow-dried candidates."

6:26 Biden called on being a legacy politician; his answer, effectively, is that that's not a bad thing. His family is "committed to public service." Good spin on politicians.

6:27 Kucinich, in response to his popularity, with a candidate for line of the night: "this isn't American Idol; we're here to choose a president."

6:28 Biden called on being a "gaffe machine." Can you reassure America that you would have discipline on the world stage? Answer: "Yes." "Thank you for your answer, Sen. Biden."

6:29 Wow. Gravel just took the line of the evening. Done. Asked about his hemming and hawing on running, "I used to wonder, what the hell am I doing here; now I wonder, what the hell are some of these guys doing here?" Oh, my goodness. He's still going. "Some of the people on this stage frighten the heck out of me." "No options left on the table" equals nukes. When asked who he's referring to that frighten him? "Well, the top tier ones... And Biden; you have the arrogance..." Wow. So that's about done. Clinton was the only one to get a rebuttal, apparently; "I stand behind my vote" again.

6:32 Moving back to regular questions, Edwards on the Supreme Court partial-birth abortion issue (well-asked; it was couched as a disparity between the American public, the majority of which approved of the Supreme Court ruling, and elected officials, most on the Democratic side of which have spoken out against it): this is a perfect example of what's at stake in this election, and we have to make a strong decision about who's best suited to winning the election. Believes that women should be trusted to make that choice, but that it's a very difficult decision and all choices have to be respected.

6:34 Obama, with the question, gives an issues-based answer to a woman's right to choose, and what we should be doing moving forward to defend it. Women should be trusted to make those decisions with their families and doctors, and thinks most Americans agree; describing a specific issue like partial-birth abortion deters many people, understandably, but we're in line with Americans' opinion on the broader issue. But we should be talking about the issues there is already consensus about: reducing teen pregnancy, etc.

6:35 Biden, asked if he'd have a litmus test question on Roe v. Wade, said no, not a specific question, but he has led fights against candidates that would shoot down Roe v. Wade, and how the recent decision is really insiduous because it undermines Roe v. Wade.

6:37 Kucinich, same question: any appointment I make as President will necessarily reflect my thinking. I'd be a healer, and work to unite differences and defend a woman's right to privacy. Boy, I don't know, but sometimes it seems like for America, those are two different goals. Dodd: do you regret your decision to support Justice Roberts? No; he said he'd support precedent; I'm disappointed in how he didn't do what he said he'd do.

6:39 A down-the-line question, on a model Supreme Court Justice (turns out they can't choose dead justices, which they're all disappointed to hear): Richardson: Ginsburg; Dodd: Ginsburg; Edwards: Ginsburg or Breyer, and they're out of time and can't go on to the others.

6:40 Clinton on government failures in VaTech. Brings up the Bill Clinton administration, and how their goal was to not limit Second Amendment rights, but to put safeguards on accessibility; the failure in VaTech was with someone who wasn't mentally stable being able to get his hands on a gun anyway.

6:42 Richardson: you're the NRA's favorite from either party, did VaTech make you reconsider any part of your stance? I'm Governor of New Mexico, of course I'm a gun owner, we like the Second Amendment down home; this issue deals with two fundamental problems: treating mental illness truly as an illness on par with other illnesses, and instant background checks, which I was in favor of.

Show of hands: How many in their adult lifetimes have had a gun in the house: Gravel, Biden, Dodd, Richardson, Kucinich. Biden then asked the same question as Clinton of what can we do? Follows his trend of selling himself, talking about the Biden crime bill that the Clinton administration "made work incredibly well." Assault weapons ban shouldn't have expired; gun show loophole should not exist; agrees with others on mental illness problem.

6:45 Health care — how would you pay for it? Edwards first, he's said he'd raise taxes, but which ones? Mentions how the details of these big ideas everybody discusses needs to be talked about. "Rhetoric is not enough. Highfalutin' language is not enough." Nice! The direct answer: He'd retract the Bush tax cuts for those who earn over $200,000. Goes on explaining his universal health care plan. Obama next: says first he'll tell you what his plan is; spent the whole time talking about what the plan was, the pooled-buyin plan similar to what Congress has, controlling health care costs with preventive care and technology, and catastrophic coverage. Not one word about how to pay for it. Bet he sets a trend there.

6:48 Clinton next; called "possibly the candidate most closely associated with this issue" due to her efforts during the past Clinton presidency. Also talks about what the plan would be; got to cover everyone, control costs, improve quality. wouldn't fund a broken program; have to figure out a plan that works first, because the current one doesn't. Um, I think we all know this already.

6:49 Richardson: you don't want to raise taxes; how would you pull off your health care plan? I'm a governor, I have to deal with these executive issues you've been asking every day. No new bureaucracy; fix inefficiencies — 31% of current costs go to inefficiencies. We'd save billions with a unified source of medical information, cutting HMOs and other inefficiencies. Time runs out on him again; seems MSNBC is not handling this well.

6:50 SC question: Biden asked if he agrees with the idea of the NAACP that tourists and sporting events shouldn't be held until the Confederate flag is removed from state House grounds. Biden agrees with a leader of the black caucus in thinking it'd be better to hold events here and show off the abilities of strong historically black colleges. Obama also asked; said Confederate flag belongs in a museum, but we have bigger issues: inner-city and rural poverty, etc.

6:53 Another SC question: Short answer, biggest political/professional mistake of your past four years, asked to all. Gravel: was apparently "starting to feel like a potted plant." He sure hasn't had much face time. As senior statesman here, not holding these guys' inexperience against them. Kucinich: as mayor of Cleveland, firing a police chief live on the news. Really? Clinton: not getting the message out enough on health care. Believing the President when he said he'd get UN inspectors to check for WMD's in Iraq. Obama: leaving the floor in protest during the Schiavo bill instead of fighting it. Biden: trusting the administration to be competent, and underestimating their arrogance. Couldn't do anything to impact GWB's thinking. Edwards: his vote on the war. That's the one people were looking for, of course. About time. Dodd: same. Richardson: I'm impatient, I want to change things quickly. Should have answered "I have the habit of being too honest when running for president."

6:57 SC questions: Clinton on amnesty for aliens: doesn't really answer; supports broad immigration reform. Biden: other countries have more university grads than we do for engineering and the sciences; how would you avoid the university "brain drain?" Change teaching; if we want the best students, we need the best teachers. Dodd: I have to get a drug test for a job, shouldn't welfare recipients have a drug test? The country's uneasy about being overtested all the time. Not fair to take away the livelihood of those with an illness. Edwards on why gas prices are still rising with oil companies making so much: because demand is still rising; that's why we have to do something about conservation and efficiency; should ask America to be patriotic on something other than war. Kucinich on high middle class health care premiums: "my house was $22k, I connect with middle class;" talks about his single-payer universal health care bill.

6:59 first day of your presidency: what would you do? Richardson: first day, end war in Iraq with diplomacy. Second, put through a energy independence program. Third day, major initiative on climate change. And the fourth day he'd take off. That was funny. Good job. Makes you look less like a goon.

7:00 Obama with a foreign policy question, on who our greatest allies are. European Union and NATO, could be a help in the Middle East, though with Iraq we've lost focus. Japan has been a strong ally; China is not a friend or enemy, but a "competitor," but we have to have enough contact with them to keep the region stable. Sounds like he's been briefed on what everyone thought was his weakness. Then a followup on his saying that "no one has suffered more than the Palestinian people" — nice job refusing the premise! says you need the rest of the quote; "no one has suffered more... from the failure of the Palestinian leadership" — to recognize Israel, denounce terrorism, etc.

7:02 Biden on what the three biggest threats are to the U.S. other than Iraq. North Korea, Iran (long-term), Putin's move in a totalitarian direction. We also have to jettison the notion of preemption doctrine, and that of regime change. We need to focus on prevention &mdash "open up our ears, and talk" — and not regime change but "what no one's talking about: conduct change." Reestablishing America's place in the world. Diplomacy and such; others have talked about it, but it deserved bringing up again. Gravel, same question: we don't have any important enemies. (the question did imply other countries, not organizations) We need to start dealing with other countries as equals. We spend more on defense than the rest of the world combined. Iraq was never a threat. The military-industrial complex controls not only our government, but our culture. My crystal ball says the guy is not going to be the Democratic candidate. Lucky guess.

7:05 Edwards talks about how we have to ultimately change what the underlying dynamic of what's changing. To get rid of the threats, the world has to see America as a force of good again, so he's suggested worldwide efforts to increase literacy, build infrastructure, sanitation, economic development; helping restoring America to a high place in the eyes of the world by demonstrating its commitment for humanity. Richardson on what he would do differently in Russia than Bush — a politics-wonk question, and he answers like a politics wonk, but very intelligently. Bullet points on nukes, dealing with Chechnya, energy exporter, promoting democracy. On Bush specifically: "Being stubborn isn't foreign policy; and power without diplomacy is blind." Points out his efforts with North Korea; asks why issues like Darfur are being ignored.

7:07 Clinton asked about Guiliani's comments on how Democrats don't understand the threat to America. Talks about how you can see so much that hasn't been done in regards to our security, and how the President tries to heighten fear about security without actually making ourselves safer, and has also made the world as a whole less safe and less stable. Dodd, same question (which to remind, was *how* Democrats got that label.) He says: Good question, since Republicans haven't shown success in it. "Stateless terrorism is a multinational problem." +2 wonk points — damn right.

Show of hands: do you believe there's such a thing as a "global war on terror?" Kucinich was the only one I saw without his hand up. Wait, no; Edwards and Biden didn't raise their hand either. And Gravel didn't actually raise his hand until after the commentator continued. Kucinich was asked why: because a war is seeing it in terms of enemies. The world is more complex than that. We need to connect with the other countries that are waiting for a hand of friendship. Help with peace w/Israelis and Palestinians; talk to Syria, etc.

7:12 Obama asked, if two major cities were simultaneously hit by al Quaeda while we were having this debate (jeez, what a cheery question), what would you do as far as overseas military response? Answers that first, he'd make sure there was a solid emergency management structure in place (nice one!); check that intelligence is solid, then can take action to dismantle the network, but can't alienate international involvement in controlling the threat. Edwards: have to make sure we really knew who did it, then act quickly and decisively against those responsible. Then, find out why our intelligence community failed to catch that. Goes back to talk about the "war on terror" question: we have a global problem, but we have better tools to fix it than bombs. Clinton: a president must move as swiftly as is prudent to retaliate. Find out quickly and surely who did it, and respond militarily and quickly. Supported war in Afghanistan. That doesn't mean we go looking for other fights.

7:15 Ouch — Show of hands: anyone willing to go in with Kucinich on impeaching Cheney? Crickets. Kucinich then asked to defend that; pulls out the trusty Constitution he keeps in his pocket (kid you not). Swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution. The administration went into the war fraudulently, and has to be held accountable. Call me crazy, but I have the feeling Kucinich is going to get a poll bump from this. Gravel's already taken the crazy hat and is holding it hostage, so Kucinich gets to look more like a kooky, short Obama-style idealist.

Dodd: is there a difference between gay marriage and civil unions? Dodd says, what would you do with your own children? How would you want them treated? We'd come to the conclusion that they should have the same opportunities. So I support civil unions, but not gay marriage. Huh?

7:19 Biden asked about energy, and Tom Friedman's quotes in the New York Times that no Dem has a real plan on energy; they're not doing anything "hard". Mentions his bill with Obama on stricter auto emissions standards, ethanol, lithium battery technology, emissions caps; have to be willing to make multimillion dollar commitments — a "Manhattan Project" on energy.

7:20 Richardson asked about Castro and Cuban relations. Says he first has to answer the al Quaeda attack question; thinks it's a "Presidential question"; states you respond immediately and militarily. Then back to Castro — helping families in Florida, easing restrictions for family visits; but also planning for a Castro-free Cuba and supporting democracy.

7:21 Gravel asked about energy issues; are we behind compared to France on nuclear energy. Says no, there had to be a maturation process on energy, which he started with the Alaska Pipeline and such; he wants to go back to the war, though, and talks about how we're mischaracterizing terrorism. Terrorism has always been around and always will be, and our invasion into Iraq has actually made it worse.

7:23 Obama on what he's personally done to help conservation. Answers about planting trees; is told they meant more about lightbulbs. Gives the handed-to-him softball answer (what's up with that?), then goes on to the war like everyone else. How we need to build our image; we can build alliances along with intelligently using our military. Kucinich with a response, calls him on his "all options on the table" with Iran and the real meaning, setting the state for another war. We should move away from those wars, and the common denominator is oil — we need to reform our foreign policy by first reforming our energy policy. Obama gets a response to that, and says starting war with Iran would be a profound mistake, but at the same time they are the ones developing proliferation and are "undisputedly" the largest state sponsors of terrorism (um, can I dispute that?), and we have to be prepared. Gravel gets a response to that (jeez!) — points out that we've sanctioned Iran for the past 26 years, and called them "evil," and none of that has worked, but as far as proliferation goes, the biggest violator of the NPT is the US, not Iran — we're still building nukes. Still looks crazy, but he happens to be absolutely right. Guess all that experience in politics pays off.

7:26 Edwards on who is his moral leader. Thoughtful pause; "can't identify just one." "My Lord is important;" his wife, his father. Softball questions, I suppose, to close the evening. Clinton asked whether Wal-Mart is good or bad for America. "Mixed blessing." Right answer, of course, for a presidential candidate. Talks about how this administration doesn't see middle-class America, and both public- and private-sector leadership needs to step up. Biden asked if there's a winner on the stage, and if the party has what it takes to win the White House. Goes for a very positive close about the "winners," says he sees a group of winners on the stage, points out "whoever on the Republican side wishes for Clinton's victory is making a big mistake." But switches to the war at the end of his talk: let's not have this happy talk on war — military response in Afghanistan was necessary, in Darfur it was necessary. Aaaaand that sprint is over! Little breather while the pundits come on.

7:35 Chris Matthews thinks Obama came off best — I can't help but think that considering how little he'd hit issues before this campaign, expectation was really lowest for him. Overall, they seem impressed that Gravel and Kucinich notwithstanding, everybody played nice-nice. Matthews keeps talking about Obama; I think he's a fanboy. Also calls out the Washington press corps for not being hard enough on Cheney. Interesting. Ooh! Interview with Biden. They ask about the "yes" answer, of course. "How else do you answer that question?" You know, he may be right. Wishes we could have a 90-minute debate just on Iraq. Chris asks about Richardson backing his ideas on Iraq, and Brownback(!) as well; do you see that agreement increasing, under your leadership? Wow, that's a lot of credit you give him, Chris? Answers that the world is moving towards a unified plan on Iraq. But Chris got him started. Now he's on the fact that four years ago he pointed out that desiring an unity government that's democratic will never work, and it's about time people realize the only solution is separating the factions. I'm going to keep blogging; I think I like Chris' questions more than some of the ones in the debate. It's a shame they're only to Biden.

7:36 Asked about Bush's veto threat. Says they have to be relentless in insisting on the withdrawal. And calls the threats GWB makes on if Congress doesn't pass a clean spending bill, he'd have to extend the tours of duty — because the day after he said that, he extended their tours of duty anyway.

7:42 Richardson's turn: what would he do? Resolution deauthorizing the war, under the War Powers Act. Can't be vetoed, though it may be challenged under the Act, but the authorization was made on the WMD premise. Will the 44th President have to deal with the Iraq endgame, or can it be handled beforehand? Reality is, probably have to be dealth with by the 44th President. Darfur, et al. need to be dealt with and aren't because of Iraq.

7:48 Dodd on. "No more troops?" Pretty much, yup. "No clean bill?" No clean bill, but he's only one in the body, and he won't cut off funds for troops during the redeployment. Again admits to the Iraq vote being a mistake. Chris asks him if he thinks Clinton's vote was a mistake. Of course, he doesn't answer; that's her business. OK, now Chris is getting boring. He's asking all the standard questions on Iraq, and getting all the standard answers.

7:55 Ooh! There's a question? Do you think this kind of forum allows candidates like you the opportunity to get the visibility you need to compete in this race? Says it's a start, but it can be frustrating not having as much media attention and not being able to cover your important issues.

7:56 Keith Olbermann likes zinging Scarborough. "26 minutes, and we haven't yet heard any claims of a winner. That's about to change." :-) I find it unlikely that I'll mention anything from the Spin Room here, as it's bound to be exactly the talking points we've heard from each candidate.

8:02 Ooh, Gravel's on — this has got to be gold. "Why all the beating around the bush by the major candidates on Iraq?" "Because they're running a race, and because you the media let them get away with it." Zing! A zing back? "Where have you been since 1972?" "Under a rock for 10 years, because I was disgusted with the system. My name was on every major piece of environmental legislation in the 70's, but I got sick of where the system was going." Wants to empower Americans to set law, not Senate tactics. I have a soft spot in my — well, somewhere — for idealists. Not that I'd vote for them, but man, do I like them. "But why pass a law if you know it's going to get vetoed?" "How do you think I managed a five-month-long filibuster in the Senate? I'm good at tactics too! We can override the veto." Chris likes him too, obviously. That man is transparent.

8:09 OK, it's official — everyone loves Gravel. "Nobody expects him to become a frontrunner from this, but boy, he's refreshing!"

8:14 We see Obama's speech after the debate, and we're all amazed at his seamless transition from a flawless Los Angeles-neutral accent to a South Carolina drawl. Boy, for a guy who plays a "different kind of politics," he sure plays the game fantastically well.

8:17 Kucinich's turn, talking about his message of compassion. He is being interviewed by Joe Scarborough; he's sitting with his wife, which I'll say is a bright political move. Can I also say "wow!" here? Is that un-Democratic of me?

8:30 Now some press guy of Obama's is on, demonstrating ably why anybody that appears on television representing a candidate needs to answer questions as well as the candidate. This guy's looking so unprofessional, he's actually making Obama look *worse*.

8:53 I thought I was done, but Bill Richardson is on, and I pretty much feel obligated to mention when the next U.S. Secretary of State is on TV. He's getting nailed for his comment on giving Gonzo more time before calling for his resignation because he's Hispanic, of course. I have the funny feeling that'll haunt him for a while.

Clinton's communications director also got on, and did a very professional job; Edwards' guy, though, came across as intelligent but honest and straight-talking. I think that reflects pretty accurately on the campaigns each has been running.

OK, I think I'm calling this game. Overall, I'd have to say I was a bit disappointed — there were honestly some great minds up on that stage, arguably more clever minds than we've had on one stage for a debate in the past 25 years, but I failed to take into account how debates have changed in those 25 years. We lost a valuable service when the League of Women Voters withdrew from debate moderation in protest of all the demands the candidates made on how the debates were run. (If you like debates, and haven't ever seen the debates between '76 and '84, you should. University libraries will tend to have those videos, and you can find transcripts online.) They were right, of course; I just wish we could have real debates nowadays instead of oversanitized platforms for talking points.